Vincent Gaine: What is this film? Anyone going into it will likely be surprised, I certainly was, so what would you say is this film?
Alexis Bruchon: This film is a sort of chase but set in a tiny place, which is a bed, and with one character lying down all the time. So it’s sort of a silent and immobile chase, but it is built like a chase and a sort of rollercoaster. It’s a noir thriller, fantastic thriller, with very nightmarish ambience, which makes for a good thriller, good horror, but with very weird concepts, the boundaries between dream and reality. It’s not a film about dreams, it’s a simple film, but the way we built it, scripted and pictured it, could allow a lot of space for the spectator to put what they want into it. That was the concept at the beginning, with the challenges of making it.
VG: I can imagine. What is the effect on your creativity of the self-imposed restrictions? Reading about your background and what led to this, it was about how do you set a film in a single location? When you have these self-imposed restrictions, do you find that this improves your creativity?
AB: Yes, exactly. It’s an independent film, with very little money, but of course the physical limitations were not a starting point. The starting point was to build a feature film with a very limited concept and go through these limitations. It was the same thing with the first feature. We could have had more locations, more things to show, but the most important thing was to build the story through visual aspects, on cinematic aspects. I am not against dialogue, I love dialogue, many of my favourite films are built on dialogue, but sometimes it’s too present, especially in films set in one single room, dialogue is too important because you have the phones, two characters, and after that, cinematically, you have close-ups on faces while they are talking. The thing was to take a very boring place with a boring situation, a bed, a man in a bed in a bad situation, not very exciting in fact, but build an entire world and make it bigger than life. And to achieve that, I had to work on the visuals to put the audience in the bigger than life place. So, this very simple pair of sheets began to be a reality in itself and I tried to make it exciting.
The lead character is trapped in his bed, and it’s a very common thing in a lot of single location films, that a lot of the time it’s for very material reasons, very realistic reasons. He’s attached to his bed, in a coffin, a phone booth, a boat, we’ve seen that many times with Lifeboat, Buried, Phone Booth, Misery. The thing was to make it more exciting. Normally you have the reason as a starting point, here you have the reason at the end, or not. But you don’t know what’s happened, it’s offscreen, sort of magical or not, supernatural reason or not, and you’re finding out, something is realistic and not realistic, so you’re always finding a response and that allowed us to make it wider.
AB: Influences are always very important in making a movie. They are very different, but I didn’t want it to be too strong. For the woman, the references were very direct, because it’s a film noir, with direct references with black and white, expressionist shadows. It’s more abstract. By the way, I was very influenced by American abstract painters like Pollock, Gibbons, to make an impression on the viewer by very simple things like colours, the treatment of the colours. Of course, it’s a movie, I like most of all movies. Influences came from the movies. You have this abstract filling that I think is important in the supernatural, nightmarish way we liked to make the movie. After that we add of course very direct references and the most direct are Kaneto Shindô’s Japanese films from the Sixties called Onibaba and Kuroneko, Black Cat in English.
VG: Onibaba I am familiar with and now you mention it I can see the visual influences.
AB: By the way, when I made the soundtrack, I put the Onibaba scream in and I did distort it. So when you hear the RAP in the movie it is a reverse scream of Onibaba and part of the soundtrack. Kaneto Shindô is never direct because there is no link between Onibaba, Koruneko and my film, but the ambience and in the way we show the aura and the fantastic.
At the beginning. I hesitate between two ways: a gory and violent way, or a very ambient and Japanese way. I am also a big fan of Fulci, I like very much Pasquale Langier who directed Martyrs. I like these very organic films. Fulci, for example, makes the most disgusting films, The New York Ripper, absolutely horrendous. I think I am in the more ambient way, Cocteau for example, and I think it’s a very clever way to show the fear because it’s all in the frame, all in the editing, the colours, the shadows, for me that’s what cinema is. It’s first of all lights, it’s editing, it’s the ensemble. What was in mind was two movies, Robert Wise’s The Haunting, which is one of my favourite films, because Wise can build a tense scene with just a door handle, just three big shots of his characters, and lights. I love the shot of the wallpaper, with the main character Eleanor, something is gripping her hand, she is looking at the wallpaper and you see eyes in the wallpaper, just from the lights on the paper, and it’s absolutely incredible. I love Cocteau, Ozu, Jean-Paul Mallier for example, who can build an entire scene without dialogue. I always prefer character by what they do and not what they are. It’s a better thing to learn characters. Someone told me I don’t like character but it’s totally stupid. I love character, I build all my films on character, but I think sometimes it could be better to know them by their hands, leg, feet, rather than always talking.
VG: The central premise of the film seems to be the fear of going to sleep or being unable to wake up. What sort of research did you find and what was useful in creating that concept of fear?
AB: No science at all. The starting point is also a painting. It’s called The Night, by a Swiss painter called Ferdinand Hodler. It’s a picture of a man, scared, lying naked. He wakes up and he has some sort of pressure on the sheet, like in the movie. It’s a succubus. Later I heard of a Japanese legend of the Korubozu, and it’s the same thing. It’s a monster that goes inside your mouth and lick your face when you are asleep, and that’s why you have that dream. And what fascinated me is that in two very different cultures, from the same era, 19th century, you have exactly the same monster to represent bad nights. The research was on that. It’s a common thing we have, a fear of the night, a fear of bad dreams, and we want desperately to understand it. Of course, there is no reason: we have nightmares because we make connections in our minds. You have an appointment next day so you are nervous, so your mind will connect some images, but there is absolutely no sense. I don’t believe in the supernatural at all, but what is fascinating is that we are all in the same bus for this. But no scientific research on it, because the film is not about dreams or sleep, but how to make very common place totally dreamlike and how we can reinvent and see differently our everyday world. It was the beginning of the story.
AB: I have a strange process. I am an illustrator and graphic designer in everyday life, so it’s lonely work, I work alone. The opposite of film which is group work. I have no background in cinema, I didn’t make any short movies, never went to film school, and before (debut film) The Woman With Leopard Shoes I never touched a camera in my life. It was just my deep desire to make movies, and because I love movies, I wanted to make it. The Woman With Leopard Shoes was a school for me, so I didn’t share a lot with other collaborators. At the beginning, I wanted to share with an editor, a director of photography, a musical director, but each time it was no, I don’t have the time, or it will be very expensive, so I thought, fuck it, I want to do that, I want to learn how to do that, and I will learn by myself, by making mistakes as it were. So, it was a very lonely process but very interesting. Now I have a sort of process. At the beginning, I write the script, very precisely, and after I finish it, I never read it again. After that, I make a storyboard, a very precise storyboard, with all the shots, all the lights, all the movement, etc, and once it’s finished, I never see it again, it’s done. At each step, I have just the memories of the work I have done. I don’t know if it’s a good thing, but I have the memory of what I do, and I make little changes and I modify a little bit because I have just the memory. The good thing about memories, you remember the better things. So it’s always fresh for me and during the shooting I never follow the storyboard. That’s a little lie, because for the actor, we use the storyboard to show this is your expression, but frankly I try to not allow him to have the script with him, he has to trust me. When I say you have to do that and that, I have the memory of the storyboard but I always try on set to do different things. Most of all it’s because I want to have the perfect narrative shot for the editing. The thing with editing is, I work with one camera, I make as few shots as possible, two or three takes, no more. I try to limit it to angles to have a perfect thing, then I go to editing, in editing, I don’t see the script or the storyboard of the shoot, I just have memories of the shooting itself.
It is the same thing with the soundtrack: when I write the script I have an idea for a soundtrack, but it’s always different because during the process, I say narratively, the soundtrack is very important for me, usually important, the soundtrack is included in the shooting process because for me it’s central to the film. Music can replace all the dialogue and all the feelings. I have a big idea at the beginning, but when I have the shooting and after the editing, I have the structure of my story, after that I build the soundtrack, directly with images. It’s always, with editing, if a character does something or hears something, I will make a fusion between the images and the sound to have a perfect match. For example, the music is always a bit before the action because it reinforces how we think. It makes it more surreal to have the sound before the image. It’s a little trick you can make with these effects.
After that, I share this with the crew. But this film was made during COVID, so we made the film with only three people. We had me, the main character Vinicius Coelho and Pauline Morel, who was also the first assistant. She had very good ideas and suggestions. So, we always had discussions, the three of us, it remained a group work, which was friendly.
VG: What would you say the journey has been like for this film from initial idea to completion?
AB: The journey was like the story. I start with an idea, a realistic idea, after it went to a different route, and the result is both close to what I had in mind at the beginning but also far from my initial expectations because you have the human factor, you have time, you have COVID, you have a lot to work on, film is blood and tears, you have some difficult moments, you have some wonderful moments. Of course, there are influences on it, especially for independent films, so there is a difference between the starting point and the final cut.
VG: Does that mean when you got to the end and had the finished product did that surprise you?
AB: Yes, maybe. You are always a bit disappointed when you see the result because there is no magic anymore of the fantastic idea from the beginning. You don’t have the distance to see, so it’s a bit frustrating in fact, the final film.
VG: Have you had a chance to watch the film with an audience?
AB: Yes, but at a very tiny festival.
VG: So, is this screening at FrightFest going to be the first big audience that the film has?
AB: Yes, because the little festival was very friendly but not in a cinema, so I am very excited to see the film in a cinema. It’s a film for cinema, you have to be in a very dark room. I think I will rediscover the film with an audience in a cinema. I was a little bit vicious because the film went to a streaming online festival, and with colour grading, I made the film so dark I advise the viewer to put down all the lights because I think it’s the best way to see the picture, in the dark but not with other lights. Some people complained on the internet, saying ‘It’s too dark! I don’t like it!’ but it’s on purpose! So that’s my little vicious gift to online festivals.
VG: Coming to the end of the film, I felt a strong sense of ambiguity over what actually happened. Do you see, or do you want the audience to see, that ending as clear, or is the ambiguity important to you?
AB: Ambiguity is absolutely very important for me. It’s funny because at the end of my first film, which is a realistic film with everything explained, but I hear some people, viewers, who will say ‘Yes, but I don’t understand this moment, or this very tiny moment specifically’. It’s also beautiful to not understand everything, because you have your place in the film, you can work with the film, so it was highly important for this second film to add the degree of ambiguity and this dark space for the viewer. In fact, the film is very clear. You have a total explanation, if you look carefully, you have a total explanation for absolutely everything. For me it’s very clear. But you have to manage with the picture. I said I wanted to make a film only with light, colours, movement, etc. You have to work with the film to understand. What is interesting is that the film has been watched by several people now, from different cultures, and ambiguity, I think, we are happy with that. I don’t know if the theme is good or not, but I think one thing we succeeded with is ambiguity. For American audiences, I don’t know why, but they have a very pragmatic explanation and analysis. It’s dream palaces, dream problems. For European audiences, it’s more metaphoric, there’s a thing with anxiety, with psychological things. For Americans it’s very logical: ghosts, creatures, monsters. Like Korubozu and the paintings, back to my starting point, every culture, even every person has a different point of view on the film and its meaning. I have my point of view, ambiguity of course, I have my interpretation of the film, but I’m happy because we have plenty of space in this dark space for everyone in the film, so I’m very happy with that.
VG: How does it feel to have your film showing at FrightFest?
AB: It’s huge, because FrightFest is a very impressive festival, one of the biggest in Europe, but most of all I have to say, that for me it’s the best because they don’t have an opinion on the background of the filmmakers, and they are always searching to surprise the audiences and propose different things that I love. I’m very excited for the line-up, I didn’t push it in other festivals and there are very different tones, ambience, stories, backgrounds. You have well known filmmakers like Dario Argento, newcomers like me, so it’s very different. We are all together so it’s very interesting. We are in the Discovery strand and that is absolutely incredible to have such a big strand for Discovery in a very big festival like FrightFest which is not the case at most of the big festivals, so it’s quite unique in genre festivals, so I am more than happy to be here.
VG: What are your hopes for the film when it goes on more general release?
AB: I would like to find a way to release it to a larger audience, of course. The first step is the festivals. For independent films, festivals remain very important because they add publicity, reviews, adds a sort of stamp, that’s very good. I hope after that some people may be interested in the film. I hope for some connection with the industry and be able to release it. We made the film for audiences and for cinemas, and of course platforms are very important. I am determined to get the film distribution with a proper audience.
VG: You have said a bit about your background and the difficulties facing an independent filmmaker. What sort of advice would you give to aspiring filmmakers?
AB: Bertrand Tavernier, a French director, said to me just before he died, I met him in Lyon, I asked the same thing. He said you have to have patience and humour. I think it’s totally true. You have to be very patient and have a lot of humour. Woody Allen said a very true thing: as a starting point you are allowed to be Orson Welles but after that the only thing is to avoid disaster, and I think that’s exactly right. At the beginning you have the general idea and you are the master of the world; at the end you are like a soldier thinking it’s not possible. I think you have to be patient because it’s a very long process, although from the first word of the script to the final cut it took less than a year to make it. But it’s very stressful because no one wants you. A lot of people want to make film, and with young people and the digital it’s even worse because anyone can make a movie with their camera phone, so it is very stressful. You have a lot of festivals, a lot of distribution companies, but few have the deal at the end. You have to spend some time to work just for your passion but what is a passion if you don’t have the final goal? So it is like a run, but you don’t know the end. You are always the person who needs to run and you’re tired but you have to run again because it’s not finished.
I think it’s totally normal to say two levels between an established filmmaker who have connections and independent filmmakers who have no connections, until you prove yourself in the industry. We hope that we shoot it, and we don’t know what the audience will think. Will they love it? Hate it? Be totally indifferent? It’s an experimental film so I expect very different reactions between people who say it’s total bullshit and those who say its snobbish, I can’t stand it and those who say it’s interesting, I like the things they did, I was not bored. So, for filmmakers you need patience and humour, because you have to take it, Hitchcock said remember, it’s just films, it’s not a big deal. Nobody will die at the end, so it’s just film.
VG: Can you say anything about your next project?
AB: It’s a thriller trilogy. The first film was a film noir, this film is a fantastic thriller, and the next will be a paranoid thriller. Currently, because I change between two projects, the next is called Cutting Point. It is very cinematic because it is about an editor who discovers something in the film that she is editing. It will be cinematic on the idea of editing, switching scenes, and the power of the Kuleshov Effect. It will be a thriller, it will be very tricky, but it will be interesting at the end. For the moment, it’s an idea, I have the treatment, I write the script right now, I expect to do it very quickly.
The other is a sort of dream project, the script has been written for a year or two, but I change a lot of things, even this past two weeks, I write it again. It’s called, for the moment, Interpretation. It’s the story of two women who are kidnapped in very weird circumstances. The first woman is kidnapped, she didn’t see anything, she didn’t hear anything, she was just sitting, waiting, she was released after that. And the day she is released, her friend is kidnapped, same thing, then goes free after that. It’s very tiny but also complicated. I’ve worked on it for many years, in fact it was my first project, so it’s a dream project. But I need some more money, it’s not an expensive project at all, but I need some more money to do the thing right. I hope to find some people who would be interested in this project, because I really want to make it.
VG: Since we are at FrightFest, it only seems fitting to ask, what is your favourite horror movie?
AB: My favourite horror movie, that’s impossible to say! Of the big names, it’s The Exorcist. The funny thing is, the first time I saw The Exorcist, I didn’t like it, because it was in French and the French version is absolutely awful. I rewatched not long after this first screening and I literally was totally stunned by it as a film. For me it is not a horror movie in fact, it is a melodrama about a family, about a teenager, and a metaphor for how sexuality could be horrific. I don’t think that, but the film shows that because Regan is just a little girl, and she begins to be a woman and her mother doesn’t want to see her child that way. That’s my interpretation, it’s debatable.
The Haunting is one of my favourite horror movies, of course. Kuroneko and Onibaba, Japanese movies. Eyes Without a Face by Franju is definitely a film I love, but I discover new horror films all the time. I saw a Korean movie called Thirst. I wanted to watch it for years, but it wasn’t released in France. I watched it and it’s absolutely incredible with this variation of vampirism. Speaking of vampirism, there is a Belgian film called Daughters of Darkness by Harry Kümel. Speaking of Dario ArgentoI especially love Inferno, it’s less famous than Suspiria, but Inferno is incredible. There is a film by Sergio Martino called Torso, I totally love Torso and it was an influence for my movie because the offscreen is very important also. It’s a very poor slasher from the perspective of story, but the way Martino films it, absolute masterpiece, definitely one of my favourites. All the giallo, so plenty of movies.
VG: That was my last question, so it’s great that it was so detailed. Thank you!